During the writing movement’s formative years ( 1973 / 1974 ) RIFF was able to come up with design elements that would help shape the next generation of writers. As famous as he was, he was usually overshadowed by his friend, PHASE 2.

In the 1980s, as the first graffiti history’s were being published, RIFF wasn’t talking. While he is name checked in some books, his position as one of the all time greats is often minimized.

I wanted to do this interview to right a historical wrong, and to give the next generation of graffiti archivists, street art archivists, and Hip-Hop historians more information on such a pivotal figure. I hope I’ve succeeded.

— Chris "Freedom" Pape

RIFF:

I came into the game through CHRIS 170 and BONANZA. They're the ones that introduced me to the culture in 1971. They lived on 170th and Shakespeare, and I lived on Plimpton, so I would walk over to them, and we would play ball in the park of the school yard.

I used to go there and have my homework with me. They would always say I had a nice handwriting. And I said, "I got that from my mom." And they said, "You ever do motion tagging?" And I said, "No, what is that?" And they said, "We could show you better than we could tell you."

So they took me to Jerome Avenue, and we got on the 4 Train, and we started motion tagging. And they handed me a marker, a Dri-Mark, with the glass marker. And that's the first marker I ever tagged with. Then it was the El Marko marker, the Niji, the Pilots, and then the Mini-Wide and the Uni-Wide [which] were much thicker. 

I was always different, even when I did my RIFF style tag. Everybody kind of liked it, because I took the "R" from Creeper 170, who was my cousin, and the "F"'s came from the letter "S." That’s where I got that. I just made the line go through and drop down to make the 170 because I thought that would be unique.

Freedom:

That was when the "Reading is Fundamental" commercials were on TV all the time.

RIFF:

Yeah, that's where I got it from. Because Chris 170 and Bonanza, they were like, "You got to get something that says you," because I was writing all them names: BOY 170, WORM 161, DOVE, STAGGER 170, and all that.

They said, "You got to get something that defines you." Every time we would go motion tagging, I'd be reading a book. So that's when the RIF (Reading is Fundamental" commercial came on and I seen it, and I remember what they were saying, "You're always reading a book, or a paper, or something.” So I became RIFF.

Freedom:

So in 1971, at first you're doing single hits, hanging out with BONANZA and CHRIS 170. When do you first meet PHASE 2? I'm assuming in 1972?

RIFF:

We first met up at DeWitt Clinton High School. That’s where all the big writers hung out. When I went up there with Chris and Bonanza, they said, "You can't go talk to them. Those are the upper echelon guys. You're not in that class yet." And I didn’t understand what they were saying, but they were just trying to spare my feelings.

When I went over, and I put my hand out to shake PHASE's hand, he said, "Who are you, shorty?" I said, "I write too." He said, "Tag it for me." I tagged it. He said, "What's that say? Riss? R-I-S-S?" I said, "No, you see that line going through and dropping down? That's for the 'F170.'" And he's like, "Oh, that's unique." He said, "Does it mean riffing like riffing at somebody, or riffing like playing an instrument?" I said, "'Reading Is Fundamentally Fantastic.'" And he's like, "Oh, shorty, you deep." And that's how our friendship started.

PHASE showed me the utmost respect, like I was equal. Everybody else was putting me under him. He never did that. Even DOME and them will tell you that: "PHASE always talked about you like an equal He never talked about you like you were under him."

Freedom:

That was in the middle of '72, right around the time of the first pieces on the trains. What was it like seeing those? Do you agree that the first pieces were done by SUPER KOOL 223?

RIFF:

Yes. [Because' before that, people were outlining their tags, and they were skinny. SJK did that. But SUPER KOOL 223 outlined the letters first, and made them wider — him and CHARMIN 65. CHARMIN was better than SUPER KOOL, but didn’t do as many pieces. She went on to write with RAY B 954. PHASE and I saw those pieces. It was like an idea went off in me and PHASE's head.

A light bulb went off in both our heads at the same time. PHASE was doing square edge, PHASE 2 pieces in the summer of ’72. A little bit like THE MAN 150. He hadn't rounded them off yet. And he was also doing the PH 2s.

I did my first piece in the summer of 1972 on the wall in the tunnel. It said STAGGER 170. The first piece I did on a train was a RIFF 170. That was done in a marshmallow style.

Freedom:

Remember, people are going to be reading this. Can you define the look of a "marshmallow piece?"

RIFF:

It's like the bottom widens out more than the middle of the piece. It looks like marshmallows that have been squeezed. Other writers called called it the "Western style." But I never called it that. Then everybody started trying to do the marshmallow. And PHASE was like, "Everybody was following your lead."

Freedom:

If we put on the list of things you get credit for, marshmallow letters is the first?

RIFF:

Yes. Then PHASE invented the bubble letters and the softies. The bubble was more bubbly. It made it rounder and fatter. The softy was nice and lean [with] soft edges. Everyone started doing that. We were both handing out styles to other writers, so the trains started looking better.

I was doing my own thing, I was creating names that I liked. I might like the sound of a name, or the letters in it. The first name was WORM 161. Then BOY 170, PEAL, REAL, AS 2 and then DOVE.

CONAN wasn't really me. I did CONAN for my brother, because he was a beast. If you started something with him, he was like Conan. He was a warrior. He went at you. So that's who that was for. That's why Phase and him got along. Phase said, "Where's Zach?" I said, "He's home." He said, "Why you ain't bring him with you?" "Because if he get in trouble, I get in trouble." He wasn't as fast as me getting away, and I knew the ins and outs of the subway, so I didn't want him to get busted. So I started writing for him.

That's why me and PHASE hit it off, because I told him that. I said, "I want to do the whole alphabet, I just don't want to do one letter." That's why he really liked me. Because he saw that I thought way ahead of everybody. I didn't think on a level that most people would think on.

It was all mixed up. I was doing them all at different times. But I got so good with the paint. That's what I try to tell people — it was like an extension of my hand. I got so good with it. You see the characters, I did the Cash 2 man standing, and I did the cam engine car for the As 2 piece. And people was like, "Yo, what?" When we did that, we got chased at the 4 yard, when I did the cam engine. You see that piece wasn't finished because I was working on the car, and everybody's like, "What the hell is Riff doing with all them colors?" And then when they seen it, they was like, "Yo, he did that off the top of his head. Oh, he's nasty." And that's how I got my notoriety.

Freedom:

You were on fire in 1973 with all of those different names, but why would you do it? Most writers want to paint their name over and over again.

RIFF:

I always wanted to stay anonymous. I thought that that was the best thing, being anonymous to people. I saw, when certain guys weren’t known, people wanted to know who they were. But at the same time, I was saying, "I want the mystique of it all." Because every time they saw something of mine with a different name, you see their faces, how it just lit them up.

Especially when the guy got off the train to see the tiger stripe RIFF piece. The businessman, when he stepped up to see the tiger stripe and his book bag got caught in the door — his briefcase. He was trying to pull it out, and they had to re-open the door when he got on. But that showed me I was on the right track of what I was doing. I looked at him, and I was like...People were at the bench when that happened. And they looked at me and went…daaamn.

The RIFF tiger stripe piece was one of those accidental things. I had gone to the Four Yard to do a piece in the same style. Whenever I go into a yard I always look around for things. This time, I found some scrap paint that some writer left there. As you can see, I used a light blue going around it. But I found a half a can of orange and a half a can of black and that's where I came up with the tiger stripe idea. I made it up on the spot.

Freedom:

Where did you get the idea for the names?

RIFF:

The names just came from everywhere. Like FLIP was actually RAY B 954, and he gave it to me. Those were the pieces with the top 3Ds. CRUNCH came from the cereal, Captain Crunch. DOVE, I took from the soap. The WoORM 161 pieces were also from a comic, and the CASH pieces were because everyone loved money. That was an easy one, I did some of those with a pitchfork in the letters.

Freedom:

You’ve already mentioned a series of style innovations, many of which were still in use today. Tell me about mechanical style?

RIFF:

When PHASE started doing soft-style letters, he would sometimes add loops and arrows. I started to do pieces like that — only I would sharpen the edges — then I would connect the letters so that they had that hard edge mechanical look. PHASE did some pieces like that, and so did PALO, and later other writers picked up on it and it was everywhere.

Freedom:

In 1973, the Ebony Dukes were the first crew to consistently do pieces on the trains. How were the INDs formed?

RIFF:

It really wasn’t a response to the Ebony Dukes. There were other writing groups as well. What happened was, LEE 163 went to Brooklyn, and he went out there with Wicked Gary and them, and they treated him like he was nobody. He came back upset. Him and PHASE were talking and Phase said, "Were not even going to write EX-VANDALS any more. We’re going to make our own thing up because they do not treat our family right.”

Freedom:

So they chose to give up on the EX-VANDALS right?

RIFF:

Yeah, and I decided to write the "INDs" because I liked the way it sounded. That's why I got in, because PHASE said, "It's independence, that means we all got our own individualities." I said "Yo that's hot.” Some of the first members were DICE 198, STAY HIGH 149, LEE 163, me, CHECKER 170, BILLY 167, PEL, and STICK 1. I’m sure I forgot some names, but PHASE was looking for people with style.

Freedom:

Who was your biggest competition at the time?

RIFF:

I painted with PHASE, but it was never really a competition. We were both doing different styles. We liked to see what each other were doing.

PEL always wanted to burn me. I just always took his head off. That's why he would get a name to go match my name. So when I did the DOVE’s, that was when PEL was doing the DIME’s. And we’d paint with each other and I’d do a DOVE and he’d do a DIME, or another time I did a PEAL and he did a PPEL. He was good, and I liked the competition.

Freedom:

So the bulk of your career is '73, '74, but you left on a high note in 1976. Can you tell the story behind that?

RIFF:

BOT came and got me in the basketball court and said he wanted me to do a piece for his brother, SOLID, who had recently died. He had asked PHASE, but PHASE was still upset about SOLID’s death because he was there when he was killed.

BOT said, "Come on RIFF, I got all this paint. My mom wanted me to get rid of it." He had all this Rust-O, so I had to go. It was tempting and I wanted to see if I still had it, and I did. As you see, that SOLID piece was crazy. And then the coordination of the federal safety colors, I was able to blend them nicely.

Freedom:

And the reason that train becomes so important is because it inspires members of the Death Squad and all the crews that come after.

RIFF:

Yeah, because it was four people on one car, and it was all unique. Even though I did three of the styles — I did the SOLID, RIFF and II helped DON with his piece. That was my final piece. After that, I went to college on a basketball scholarship.

Freedom:

What was your college career like?

RIFF:

They sent a booster over with an envelope. I didn't know that they was going to pay me like that, or I wouldn't have been so surprised. I opened it up, I saw the money and my eyes brightened up.

Then, what looked like a student came up to me and said, "Give me that envelope, what did they do?" I wasn't trying to get kicked out, but I wasn't trying to fight with them either. So I handed it to them and they reported it. And so I had to leave that school and go to a different school. That's how I ended up at Vanderbilt.

Freedom:

And then what happened with the career after that?

RIFF:

I kept playing, but when the draft came up my mom said, "Fuck the draft, we just want you to get done with your education. We are not worrying about that because you run up and down in your underwear."

She called it underwear. I was kind of disappointed that she didn't let me pursue it like I wanted to, because I was really good. Let me tell you, I was so good a lot of guys were saying, "You should have been in the league, what happened?" I was like, "My mom didn't want that for me." And moms knows best, and that's how I feel. Your parents know what you're capable of. And she always said I had a good head on my shoulders, that I needed to use it for something smart.

Freedom:

In the early '80s you were hanging out at Fashion MODA, the alternative art space in the Bronx, why weren’t you painting?

RIFF:

Back then, Lonnie (PHASE 2) wanted to take me to Europe. He wanted me to paint with him, but I was still playing ball. That had become my life. It wasn’t until much later that I started doing canvasses and drawings for collectors. I still have one foot in the art world, but I mostly like to sell things on Instagram. People message me from all over the world, and I do well with that.

Freedom:

Did you ever think that you’d jumpstart an art movement that’s over fifty years old?

RIFF:

Yeah, we knew it was art all the time. It was the rest of the world that had to catch up.

For more early graffiti photos, check out Keith Baugh's book 'New York Subway Graffiti 1973-1975.'